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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:41 pm Post subject: Mayor of Toronto Blames U.S. for Shootings in His City... |
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Interesting article.
Of course, if W. Bush were not president, Canadians wouldn't be saying things like this, because all of the anti-American hostility is related to the current Administration.
Also, I note that the mayor and a security analyst also reference problems with Canada's poor and specifically cite "a gang problem" in Toronto. This is surprising, because the "learn to take better care of your poor" comments that poured out in the wake of the Katrina disaster -- on this forum -- led me to believe that Canada didn't have any such social issues, particularly in the great, peaceful, diplomatic, racism- and violent-crime free city of Toronto...
"Guns don't kill people! Stupid motherf*****s with guns kill people!"
Chris Tucker, Money Talks
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/12/27/canada.crime.ap/index.html |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, I'd put some of the blame on the Canadian government. It did absolutely nothing to prevent the growth of the most powerful gangs in Canada, such as the bikers and the Asian gangs. Had they taken action 20 years ago, the problem could have been easily controled. But in instead, they chose to dismiss the bikers as being unsophisticated thugs and bowed under the pressure of certain interest groups who laid accusations of racism on to anyone who spoke of Asian gangs. |
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yoda
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Location: Incheon, South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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It will certainly be embarrassing for him if the gun turns out to be local. It is possible to get handguns in Canada too.
However, the argument is the same one that the U.S. government has been using to criticize Canada for that wacky weed that gets smuggled into the US. Unfortunately, the friction caused by immigrants and marijuana flowing south and guns and tobacco flowing north is going to force our respective governments to waste resources tightening up the border. I prefer a freer border and greater economic cooperation.
Personally, while I am for anti handgun laws, I think it is a far stretch to blame foreign laws for domestic violence issues.
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| I'd put some of the blame on the Canadian government. |
How about 98% to the Canadian governments for allowing gangs to grow in Canada and say 2% to the US for having lax handgun laws which allow guns to end up smuggled into Canada. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| yoda wrote: |
| ...the argument is the same one that the U.S. government has been using to criticize Canada for that wacky weed that gets smuggled into the US. |
Absolutely. The U.S. can be fairly criticized for emphasizing drug production over drug consumption in the so-called war on drugs. Eradicating Andean coca fields does not address the demand problem which, I believe, is the root of the overall problem. |
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RachaelRoo
Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Location: Anywhere but Ulsan!
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Mayor of Toronto Blames U.S. for Shootings in His City.. |
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| Gopher wrote: |
led me to believe that Canada didn't have any such social issues, particularly in the great, peaceful, diplomatic, racism- and violent-crime free city of Toronto...
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You must have seen Bowling for Columbine! That outstanding documentary presents a complete and accurate view of the entire social situation in Canada. No poverty, no unemployment, ethnic harmony, and no crime. Well, okay, occational violent crime, but only because of things from OUTSIDE of our borders.
You certainly can't blame the poor, disadvantaged, mislead souls who did this...it's not their fault! |
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Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| So we can't address the underlying social issues because that is crazy and we can't take away guns from people becasue then we're in a facist state so what's your suggestion? |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| yoda wrote: |
| However, the argument is the same one that the U.S. government has been using to criticize Canada for that wacky weed that gets smuggled into the US. Unfortunately, the friction caused by immigrants and marijuana flowing south and guns and tobacco flowing north is going to force our respective governments to waste resources tightening up the border. |
yoda, aren't you british who has the proud streak about not knowing about North American 'happenings'.. 
But anyways.. I never heard of the U.S. criticizing Canada for wacky week.. Canadians make it sound like it has some weird monopoly on pot. But pot is absolutely everywhere in the U.S. (stats since the 1960s have always alluded to high usage among high school and college students in the U.S.). Whatever did come from Canada would be something like a fraction of a small percent, hardly even on the radar map. I smoked a lot when I was young in Michigan.. and it was always Thai Stick or Humbodlt County stuff or some local variety of houseplants around and down the street.. stuff would come up from the South a lot - Kentucky, etc. BC bud just had no real reputation as anything all that special until I got to Korea and the BC guys started talking about it like its the center of the world.
But anyways.. the 'war on drugs' in the U.S. is epidemic with meth, crack, heroin, etc.. all the real drugs.
All this 'pot-smoking' canadian stuff is extremely light nearly non-relevant non-existant concerns to any DEA (drug enforcement agency). Particularly when we already have a zillion crack houses and meth labs in just about every niche and cranny of the U.S. to deal with. From my experience, with how prevalent pot was on my campus, the DEA and otherwise really overlook such a light drug as pot use among college students unless you have massive amounts of it with intent to sell.. and then would be required to respond to that if it seemed too obvious.
But the real drug epidemic is with home-grown crack houses and meth labs.. and the origin of the crack/cocaine is coming from South America.. as is the origin of meth labs originally having also come from Mexico.
Canada is in the serious lightweight category when it comes to drugs.. which I guess is why this 'gang shooting' stirred up the entire nation up there.
When I lived in Minneapolis.. there was a crack house a few houses down.. and even heard a few drive-by shootings that woke me up night.. one night even had a guy chalked out on the sidewalk on the corner. That everyday incident in the mass majority of U.S. cities wouldn't even be worthy of back page of the local newspaper let alone into some national media frenzy event.
With this shooting alone.. its definetely a concern that Canada may get our extremely serious epidemic social drug problems than that we in the U.S. might get BC bud in the hands of a few college students living in Bellingham Washington. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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I would be very surprised if a good chunk of the illegal guns in Canada weren't coming from the US. Now, that being said:
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"What happened yesterday was appalling. You just don't expect it in a Canadian city," the mayor said.
"It's a sign that the lack of gun laws in the U.S. is allowing guns to flood across the border that are literally being used to kill people in the streets of Toronto," Miller said.
Miller said Toronto, a city of nearly three million, is still very safe compared to most American cities, but the illegal flow of weapons from the United States is causing the noticeable rise in gun violence.
"The U.S. is exporting its problem of violence to the streets of Toronto," he said.
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US laws exist solely for the protection of US citizens. If Canada doesn't like the smuggling that results from those laws, tough beans. It's up to Canada to secure its own borders against contraband, and the US is under no obligation to change its own laws to make Canada a safer place.
However, if a perception does develop among Canadians that the US is a main source of illegal weapons, then Canadian border guards will be well within their rights to increase interrogation of American travellers at the border. If American travellers don't like it, they can lobby their own government to tighten the gun laws. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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U.S. experts offer Toronto gloomy assessment on coping with guns and violence
COLIN PERKEL
Wed Dec 28, 5:39 PM ET
TORONTO (CP) - While the death of a girl caught in the crossfire of a brazen Boxing Day shootout involving as many as 15 young people shocked a city not yet used to such wanton killing, American experts can offer only a gloomy assessment of what works when it comes to curbing gun violence.
Decades of experience and attempts at dealing with the problem have shown there are no easy fixes, certainly not once youths have already bought into a gang culture, they say.
"Nothing that we have that people thought to be a solution has been a lasting solution," Peter Greenwood, former director of the criminal justice program at the Rand organization think-tank, said from Agoura, Calif.
"Nobody's got a good answer after all these years." 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/cpress/20051228/ca_pr_on_na/toronto_shootings_u_s;_ylt=AvZh2H90KaitW7Baz6upaeYlkMEF;_ylu=X3oDMTA3OWI1ZGNqBHNlYwM3Mzc- |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| I never heard of the U.S. criticizing Canada for wacky week.. |
Actually, the "drug czar" was whining about Canadian weed just last year.
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The head of the Office of National Drug Control Policy (http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov), drug czar John Walters, this week pointed the finger at high-potency Canadian marijuana as at least partly responsible for a doubling of pot-related emergency room admissions. Comparing Canadian weed to crack cocaine, Walters Wednesday urged the Canadian government to deal with the "extremely dangerous" problem.
"Canada is exporting to us the crack of marijuana and it is a dangerous problem," Walters said in Miami, where he kicked off a campaign to cut marijuana use by Hispanic youths, according to an Associated Press report. "We need to have political leadership in Canada that recognizes the problem," he said. "Addiction is going to spread in Canada dramatically. It has in many places."
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I love that line "the crack of marijuana", plus the fact that he was denouncing Canadian weed in Miami, where I doubt they get much of the stuff. But since whining about things is pretty much the drug czar's job description, we probably shouldn't read too much into it.
Oh, and interesting that both the Toronto mayor and the US drug czar use the phrase "Country X is exporting this problem to us", as if the citizens of the target country have no free will in regards to using the contraband merchandise.
http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/333/walters.shtml |
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Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| The problem I (and most canadians) have is that when the US talks about weed they threaten to "tighten" the border in retaliation for our government making a decision they don't like. When we accuse the US of not having strong gun laws we get told to mind our own buisness. |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Octavius Hite wrote: |
| The problem I (and most canadians) have is that when the US talks about weed they threaten to "tighten" the border in retaliation for our government making a decision they don't like. When we accuse the US of not having strong gun laws we get told to mind our own buisness. |
Word.
Well, if Canadians don't like American handguns, why don't they tighten the border and keep them out instead of bitching about American gun laws. I'm not a big fan of handguns, so I keep them out of my house. I don't blame Glock for making them. Why can't the Canadian government do the same thing?
The reason they are going into Canada is because there is a demand, just like weed flowing the opposite way. |
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Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Of course its the responsibility for Canada to secure and tighten its own border. The problem is that when the Americans say that there are doing it, they mean it as a threat, the drug czar threatened Canada with tightening the border to the point that trade would be disrupted. Thats the difference, maybe we should say that the flow of oil maybe affected as we have to now serach all the oil tankers for illegal guns??? |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Octavius Hite wrote: |
| Of course its the responsibility for Canada to secure and tighten its own border. The problem is that when the Americans say that there are doing it, they mean it as a threat, the drug czar threatened Canada with tightening the border to the point that trade would be disrupted. Thats the difference, maybe we should say that the flow of oil maybe affected as we have to now serach all the oil tankers for illegal guns??? |
You honestly in-your-heart really believe the border is going to be tightened over the drug czar's idiotic quoted comment about pot-smokers in Canada reportedly told to coke/crack/etc. ravished Miami's latino community.
The only reason I can even think it would be mentioned in Miami to hispanic youth is not because he'd even remotely seriously consider canadian pot as a threat to Miami latinos.. but he was probably trying to do everything he possibly could to not look like he was targeting/pointing fingers at the latino community of Miami itself for the serious drug epidemic/illegal drug trade raging down there. |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Tiger Beer wrote: |
You honestly in-your-heart really believe the border is going to be tightened over the drug czar's idiotic quoted comment about pot-smokers in Canada reportedly told to coke/crack/etc. ravished Miami's latino community.
The only reason I can even think it would be mentioned in Miami to hispanic youth is not because he'd even remotely seriously consider canadian pot as a threat to Miami latinos.. but he was probably trying to do everything he possibly could to not look like he was targeting/pointing fingers at the latino community of Miami itself for the serious drug epidemic/illegal drug trade raging down there. |
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