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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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 Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:26 pm Post subject: Hisbollah allowed to keep their weapons. |
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The IDF will have to resume operations in Lebanon if the expanded United Nations force being assembled does not fulfill its obligation to dismantle Hizbullah, an official in the Prime Minister�s Office warned on Tuesday.
Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora and Hizbullah leader Hassan Nasrallah reportedly reached a deal allowing Hizbullah to keep its weapons but refrain from exhibiting them in public. Israeli officials called the arrangement a violation of UN Security Council Resolution 1701, which passed over the weekend and was approved on Sunday by the cabinet.
http://flapsblog.com//?p=3265
So...hisbollah get to keep their guns and entrench themselves even more in South Leb. How many more violations of the ceasefire will HB get away with? Will the Israeli soldiers be returned? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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The Lebanese gov't has failed their people.
If they had resolved to disarm Hezbollah, I was under the impression that the UN peacekeepers would at least assist the Lebanese in their operations.
But on a practical level, Hezbollah would also have to be allowed to keep some of their weapons. Small arms and even some semi-automatics are not going to threaten peace. Its rockets that can reach Israel and other sophisticated weaponry which is needed to project power, rather than protect from incursions, that need to be removed.
One wonders where Israel was during all this. Israel needs to at the very least pay for much of the damage incurred to neutral civilian infrastructure. No need to rebuild Hezbollah run hospitals, but they should fund repair on the airport runways. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| One wonders where Israel was during all this. Israel needs to at the very least pay for much of the damage incurred to neutral civilian infrastructure. No need to rebuild Hezbollah run hospitals, but they should fund repair on the airport runways. |
I just wanted to respond to this part of your post. I disagree. When you have a government that shelters a terrorist organization and gives it legitimancy by giving it a political voice, then when the same terrorist organization attacks another state, then that government has given up ALL right to compensation. "As you sow, so shall you reap."
And another thing. That kind of invalidates Israel's war planning which seems to hit them so hard they will think twice next time. But if Israel is going to pay for infrastructure that they blew up, that kind of takes away some of that incentive for peace.
Israel shouldn't pay a dime. That would only encourage terrorist organizations. "Hmm, let's see if we can extract millions of dollars from Israel? I know, let's kidnap some soldiers and hide out till the bombs stop falling!" |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:55 am Post subject: |
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e Lebanese gov't has failed their people.
If they had resolved to disarm Hezbollah, I was under the impression that the UN peacekeepers would at least assist the Lebanese in their operations.
But on a practical level, Hezbollah would also have to be allowed to keep some of their weapons. Small arms and even some semi-automatics are not going to threaten peace. Its rockets that can reach Israel and other sophisticated weaponry which is needed to project power, rather than protect from incursions, that need to be removed.
One wonders where Israel was during all this. Israel needs to at the very least pay for much of the damage incurred to neutral civilian infrastructure. No need to rebuild Hezbollah run hospitals, but they should fund repair on the airport runways. |
Kuros,
A very well balanced viewpoint given the current "dynamics" . I disagree with some but see your point of view.
One thing to consider and which I think many people have no understanding of , is that Hizbollah is NOT a standing army. It is people with jobs and roles in the wider community. It is a militia and that militia will be inoperative when not threatened. Many people are under the false impression that they have tanks, march around daily and are "militarized" to the teeth. Not at all and their displays of might are in fact that only, just displays.
But this post is unbalanced...
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I just wanted to respond to this part of your post. I disagree. When you have a government that shelters a terrorist organization and gives it legitimancy by giving it a political voice, then when the same terrorist organization attacks another state, then that government has given up ALL right to compensation. "As you sow, so shall you reap."
And another thing. That kind of invalidates Israel's war planning which seems to hit them so hard they will think twice next time. But if Israel is going to pay for infrastructure that they blew up, that kind of takes away some of that incentive for peace. |
Why? First, the Lebanese govt did not shelter a "terrorist" organization. It tried to create peace within the framework and dynamics of Lebanon. It's past and its problems. They were trying to go forward. This all is turned on its head by the Israeli attack. The presumption that it was okay to bomb the hell out of Lebanon because they "had it coming' is just draconian and a "wild west " attitude. Lebanon , of all quarters/kinds, backed Hizbollah for obvious reasons -- its territorial integrity was trounced/trashed and Hizbollah was only able to respond and try what little it could with its matchsticks, to defend.
Given Lebanon's previous experience with Israel, given that Israel has treated Lebanon with distane and would not even begin business/economic arrangements etc....you can see who was "wanting war". If Israel would give much of its millions , in tied economic aid to its neighbours. Foster exchanges and create investment, jobs, ties of commerce, so much would change. Israel if it really wants peace , has to take the high road and help/aid. This and only this will help create a climate of mutual respect.
Who gives more aid to each other . Israel to its neighbours or its neighbours to Israel. By far, the latter. Israel should redirect its foreign policy away from the gun barrel and into channels which will foster good will and peace.....
DD |
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W.T.Carl
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| One wonders where Israel was during all this. Israel needs to at the very least pay for much of the damage incurred to neutral civilian infrastructure. No need to rebuild Hezbollah run hospitals, but they should fund repair on the airport runways. |
So by this logic the Lebanese government should pay for all the damage caused by Hisbollah rockets?
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| One thing to consider and which I think many people have no understanding of , is that Hizbollah is NOT a standing army. It is people with jobs and roles in the wider community. It is a militia and that militia will be inoperative when not threatened. Many people are under the false impression that they have tanks, march around daily and are "militarized" to the teeth. Not at all and their displays of might are in fact that only, just displays. |
You slander the word militia with this statement. Hisbollah is not a militia it is a terrorist organization. Inoperative  your stupidity astounds me.....was it 'inactive' when it invaded Isreal, killed and kidnapped its soldiers? Was it 'inactive' when it bombed American embassies? Its a terrorist organization with a strong presence in the country....as it is sheltered and protected by the government.
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| Why? First, the Lebanese govt did not shelter a "terrorist" organization. It tried to create peace within the framework and dynamics of Lebanon. It's past and its problems. They were trying to go forward. This all is turned on its head by the Israeli attack. The presumption that it was okay to bomb the hell out of Lebanon because they "had it coming' is just draconian and a "wild west " attitude. Lebanon , of all quarters/kinds, backed Hizbollah for obvious reasons -- its territorial integrity was trounced/trashed and Hizbollah was only able to respond and try what little it could with its matchsticks, to defend. |
Just how did it try to create peace? Turned on its head by Isreal? You mean that those damned Isrealis dared to protect its borders? Dared to care about its soldiers? Is this the peace you are talking about? This whole situation would never had happened if your 'inactive militia" had kept their grubby little paws off of and out of Isreal! Whose territorial integrity was trounced/trashed first? Open your freakin eyes moron!
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| Given Lebanon's previous experience with Israel, given that Israel has treated Lebanon with distane and would not even begin business/economic arrangements etc....you can see who was "wanting war". If Israel would give much of its millions , in tied economic aid to its neighbours. Foster exchanges and create investment, jobs, ties of commerce, so much would change. Israel if it really wants peace , has to take the high road and help/aid. This and only this will help create a climate of mutual respect. |
You cannot take the high road when you are dealing with fanatical terrorists. Its pointless to even try!
A farmer picked up a viper that was half-dead from the cold. When the farmer had warmed the viper, the viper uncoiled and grabbed hold of the man's hand and with a fatal bite, he killed the man who had wanted to save him. As he was dying, the man spoke some words that are well worth remembering: 'Well, I got what I deserve for having shown kindness to a scoundrel!'
I am sure that Isreal feels this way towards the bulk of the arab world. A world that has acted against Isreal from its conception. Using violence, terror and economic sanctions against them. Hisbollah recieves 60 million dollars a year from Iraq to fund its terrorist activities.
When dealing with demons you deal in fire and silver. You do not offer the demons access to your home! |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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Grotto,
I won't make a long and informed response to your vitriol.....You obviously have your mind made up without any background knowledge nor sense of the dynamics of the region.
Firstly, I do not think Hizbollah's past terrorist activity was anything but diabolic. IF. They have never taken responsibility for the claimed acts though I believe they are responsible indirectly through many of their armed wings. Horrible.
But this was a past time and would take ages to discuss, as would all of Israel's past terrorist acts. At present, the last number of years, Hizbollah is not seen as "terrorists" except for when convenient by Israel. Even
Dennis Ross, the Middle East envoy under the first Bush and Clinton administrations, has stated that
| Quote: |
| Hezbollah's resistance to the Israeli occupation, unlike its past activities aimed at Western targets, is not terrorism and that the US included Hezbollah on its list of terrorist groups for Hezbollah's past activities, not for its ongoing resistance to Israel |
they are properly seen as a militia and an resistance movement. Further, they made vast progress in areas of social assistance, women's rights and the rule of law (all Western based). they have called Al Qaeda as the demons they are and further, have not entered the fray in Iraq or elsewhere.....
Your view of them is false and it stems from just eating whatever the media wishes to feed you.
You say,
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as it is sheltered and protected by the government. |
I don't think this is the case. Hizbollah is part of the government and if anything, shelters and protects itself and the Lebanese it represents, its constituency.
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| You mean that those damned Isrealis dared to protect its borders? Dared to care about its soldiers? Is this the peace you are talking about? This whole situation would never had happened if your 'inactive militia" had kept their grubby little paws off of and out of Isreal! Whose territorial integrity was trounced/trashed first? Open your freakin eyes moron! |
Besides your hate and uncompromising sense of the politics of this region, you fail to see that Hizbollah was Israel's baby. Created by her and nurtured by her. Until you see that, you won't understand what is happening there at present. Further, I have elsewhere addressed the issue of "borders" (but may we also mention Israel's continued occupation of Golan (syria) and Cheeba (Lebanon) and also its refusal to submit to almost 38 previous U.N. resolutions......(incase you want to bring up the ONE of disarming Hizbollah). Let's not forget the history of Israel's invasion........
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| You cannot take the high road when you are dealing with fanatical terrorists. Its pointless to even try! |
You are completely wrong. Taking the high road is NOT being defenseless, but being strong. It is doing the moral and right thing. It is about looking after the future and not the momentary impulse of retribution and retaliation. It is about respecting the enemy and dealing with them from strength but without diabolical hatred. Taking the highroad is saving your children's lives.
I've lived a little bit in my life and one fact I can conclude. The world spins in violence because of those afraid to see their enemies as "human" and with all the same qualities, wishes, dreams as themselves. You fail to see them as humans (even as your snake image Freudianly supposses). Good riddens to you. Start learning some more and looking at things with a little more depth.
DD |
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Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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ddeubel
I have read your rhetoric on this board for years and never really gotten involved one way or the other. Your blatant "hatred" of Isreal is well documented....you place all of the blame at their doorstep for all the woes of the middle east.
Its never the terrorists or other countries surrounding Isreal that are at fault they are just responding to the evil jewish american alliance
Perhaps until hisbollah and hamas strike the destruction of Isreal from its charter they would be able to be dealt with.
Hisbollah, al-queda, hamas are all terrorist organisations whose methods are well documented. While hisbollah puts on one face for the media cameras they are still stockpiling rockets that serve only one purpose....terroist attacks against Isreal. They are cowards who hide amongst the very people of Lebanon.....they want high casualty rates amongst civilians....which is why they launch their rockets from residential areas.
Do I consider terrorist less than human? You bet! They should all be executed when captured!
Mod Edit: Edited out flames by poster |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
[
But this post is unbalanced...
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I just wanted to respond to this part of your post. I disagree. When you have a government that shelters a terrorist organization and gives it legitimancy by giving it a political voice, then when the same terrorist organization attacks another state, then that government has given up ALL right to compensation. "As you sow, so shall you reap."
And another thing. That kind of invalidates Israel's war planning which seems to hit them so hard they will think twice next time. But if Israel is going to pay for infrastructure that they blew up, that kind of takes away some of that incentive for peace. |
Why? (1) First, the Lebanese govt did not shelter a "terrorist" organization. It tried to create peace within the framework and dynamics of Lebanon. It's past and its problems. They were trying to go forward. (2) This all is turned on its head by the Israeli attack. The presumption that it was okay to bomb the hell out of Lebanon because they "had it coming' is just draconian and a "wild west " attitude. Lebanon , of all quarters/kinds, backed Hizbollah for obvious reasons -- its territorial integrity was trounced/trashed and Hizbollah was only able to respond and try what little it could with its matchsticks, to defend.
Given Lebanon's previous experience with Israel, given that Israel has treated Lebanon with distane and would not even begin business/economic arrangements etc....you can see who was "wanting war". (3) If Israel would give much of its millions , in tied economic aid to its neighbours. Foster exchanges and create investment, jobs, ties of commerce, so much would change. Israel if it really wants peace , has to take the high road and help/aid. This and only this will help create a climate of mutual respect.
Who gives more aid to each other . Israel to its neighbours or its neighbours to Israel.(4) By far, the latter. Israel should redirect its foreign policy away from the gun barrel and into channels which will foster good will and peace.....
DD |
1. Hezbollah is listed as a terrorist organization by numberous countries.
2. And why was it attacked in the first place? Because Hezbollah begin this conflict.
3. Why should Israel give money to organizations who are dedicated to its destruction? And even if it did, how would it know that this money is being used to further living standards and not for buying and stockpiling weapons? Your naivety never ceases to amaze.
4. WHAT? When have the Arab nations (Israel's neighbors) given a dime to Israel? Either provide links or stand convicted of fabricating evidence. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Do I consider terrorist less than human? You bet! They should all be executed when captured! |
Grotto, you wouldn't know a terrorist if he sat on your face. Keep looking under your bed........
Your diatribe can only be responded to in kind. You unfortunately have a fossilized view of what a "muslim" is. And to you they are hateful terrorists whereas the reality is, they are diverse and it is their governments that if anything should be called to task. Not a whole people.
Further, as a Jew, I've been informed of Israel my whole life.
I used to think that Israel should always be strong. All Israelis had to learn to shoot first, think later. All Israelis were superior to others and we had a special place in God's hierarchy. Jabberwooky.
We are special as all cultures are special, unique and a part of a diverse planet. I finally after many years of travel and debate , especially with friends in France, started to see what they were saying about Israel's govt and brutality towards its neighbours and even its Arab citizens or citizens who dissent. I started to see more balanced. Still want a strong Israel but also a decent one. Not the shoot to kill one which you advocate by spitting on all Arabs.
By the way == I don't buy into or endorse any Jewish conspiracy stuff....Further, I'm no hater and have constantly called the KKK types etch on this board to task also. So you are spouting nonsense, there is dirt in your beard as well as black in your phlegm.
Please read something I read a long time ago about the conflict and which makes sense , atleast keep it in mind. I've posted it at the bottom.
Urban Myth,
I've addressed points 1 and 2 thoroughly elsewhere.
Point 3 - why????? In the name of peace. Please see the article below.
Point 4 -- I"m not spouting. It is well known that the Arab boycott is but a tin man. Arab firms have made major investment in Israel. Meanwhile, the converse is absolutely, hundred fifty percent not true. Partially due to Arab economic weakness (not much to invest into) but also due to laws which prohibit Israeli direct investment in Arab countries (which are labeled as "seditious". Please note just one "small" investment by Orascom, an Arab telecom venture
http://www.time.com/time/globalbusiness/article/0,9171,1214942,00.html
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Posted Monday, Jul. 17, 2006
With all the turmoil in the Middle East, few took much notice when Egyptian businessman Naguib Sawiris signed a deal last December involving a firm from a neighboring country. This was no routine transaction. Sawiris, CEO of Orascom Telecom Holding SAE, in Cairo, purchased 9.9% of Partner Telecommunications Co. Ltd., in Tel Aviv, considered to be the biggest investment, valued at $150 million, ever made in the Jewish state by an investor from an Arab country. Sawiris expected the rebukes he received from some fellow Arabs for doing business with Israelis even as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict still rages. But he insists that such deals will benefit the region by forming business bridges. "This is a very big step," says Sawiris, sipping an espresso in his 26th-floor office overlooking downtown Cairo, the Nile River and the Giza pyramids. "I am betting that peace will prevail in the end |
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EIGHT STEPS TO ISRAELI PALESTINIAN PEACE
By Mubarak Awad and Abdul Aziz Said
Dr. Awad is the Chairman of Non-Violence International and the National Director of the National Youth Advocate Program. He is also the founder of the Palestinian Center for Nonviolence Peace,
Professor Said is the Director of the International Peace and Conflict Resolution Program at the American University and holds the Mohammed Said Farsi Islamic Peace Chair.
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict remains intractable, despite the best efforts of the Clinton Administration. Traditional techniques of conflict resolution using engineering, mechanistic, isolated approaches to problem solving are not suitable for nonmaterial identity based conflicts. Beliefs, values and behavior of conflicting parties are at stake. The fundamental concessions that are needed for peace will emerge, not through technical agreements, but only in a transformed political and psychological environment. Israeli-Palestinian peace is achievable but only at a price: both sides must undergo a change of mind.
The present impasse in the peace process is fundamentally a crisis of mind and spirit. If Israelis and Palestinians cannot change some deeply ingrained habits of thinking about one another, a crisis will be recreated short order. Only a new shared vision will suffice.
Why vision? To avoid drift. To avoid self-centeredness. To help mobilize the best imagination and energy of followers and leaders. To widen and deepen the sense of mutual responsibility. In the absence of vision, pandering replaces leadership, mood replaces action, and charisma replaces creativity.
Self evidently not all Israelis and Palestinian are accepting of the other, or open to the reality that they are each other�s neighbors. The irrendentists among both groups insist that no real change has taken place in the context of their relationship. There are Palestinians and Israelis who recognize that the relationship between the two parties has changed, but they are incapable of acting on their conclusions. Palestinians and Israelis have no other viable choice but to live beside each other. The security of the Israelis and the dignity of the Palestinians go hand in hand.
The only workable instrument for establishing a Palestinian-Israeli peace is the development of a broad consensus. The strategy of consensus calls for Israelis and Palestinians to strengthen their mutual dependencies and cooperative linkages. Both parties must willingly exploit existing tendencies towards their interdependence. Israeli security from this perspective is achieved less by placing the Palestinians at a power disadvantage than by circumscribing Israel�s freedom to and incentives for undertaking hostile actions. Adoption of an interdependent strategy carries with it an implied willingness to downgrade sovereign freedom of action as a defining characteristic of security. Enhanced Israeli security requires improved Palestinian security. Both sides achieve common security.
The process of consensus underscores the obsolescence of the habitual competitive practice in the Israeli Palestinian relationship. It is a model based on the assumption that the pursuit of self-interest, leads to the betterment of both sides. Consensus requires a cooperative model of Israeli Palestinian relationship that focuses on the benefits of stable peace for both. Neither Israelis nor Palestinians can achieve stable peace alone. In fact, both sides have to make sacrifices.
Given present realities, the Israelis cannot be defeated militarily; yet, they cannot win politically. The loss of the ability to force a verdict by armed conflict imposes a limitation on the practice of Israeli Palestinian statecraft. But it is a limitation that leaves room for vigor, imagination and skill in framing and executing reconciliation and coexistence between both parties.
Step One: Apology and Forgiveness
Israelis and Palestinians should begin their own process of truth and reconciliation now. Apology and forgiveness are central ingredients. Apology was a key to peace in South Africa and is being currently practiced by the Catholic Church, Germany and Poland who are seeking forgiveness from the Jews. Israelis should extend an apology to the Palestinians for Israeli abuse of Palestinian basic human rights. Palestinians should apologize to the Israelis for Palestinian acts of violence against Jews. Both must forgive, and accept apology graciously.
Step Two: Recognition and Acceptance
Palestinians and Arabs have to accept Israel as a Jewish state. Palestinians must recognize the Jewish historical, religious and emotional connection to the Temple Mount. This is consistent with Islamic traditions. While it is true that in times of decline in Islamic history Muslims violated precepts of coexistence, the religion of Islam clearly acknowledges and respects the rights of Jews, as well as Christians. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are not inherently hegemonic. However, in the context of power politics, Jews, Christians and Muslims have and do justify hegemonic practices. In keeping with the Islamic tradition and precepts, the Palestinians should accept Israeli identity.
Arabs also need to acknowledge the tragedy of the holocaust -- to listen to the Jewish story of pain and empathize with the historical memory of the Jewish people. The Arabs must acknowledge that the Jewish people have a historical connection to the Old City of Jerusalem and accept Israel into full membership in the Middle East region. Israel must be included in Arab maps, sports, and regional gatherings.
At the same time, Israelis have to accept that there is a Palestinian people and not merely "West Bankers" and acknowledge the historical memory of the Palestinians. The Israelis should stop referring to Palestinian land as Judea and Samaria and recognize the Palestinian�s just claim to their land. Israelis, too, must undergo a process of soul searching and come to terms with a past that includes acts of repression and dehumanization. Israel must also see itself as a Middle Eastern country. Israel is projecting itself in the region as a superior Western country, oblivious to its actual geography, an attitude that rekindles Arab resentment of Western colonialism and continued hegemonic behavior.
Step Three: Non-Adversarial Relationship
The Israelis need to abandon the practice of exploiting inter-Arab tensions. In international forums, Israel needs to refrain from voting against Arab states. In Arab countries, in public discourse, Israel should be treated as a neighbor rather than an enemy. Israelis and Arabs need to move away from the adversarial posture that both have adopted toward one another in the region and the international arena, toward a cooperative relationship.
Step Four: Sharing Progress
There cannot be peace without economic prosperity. Prosperity must be shared. Opportunities for economic growth will ensure that both Israelis and Palestinians are too busy to hate. Mutual prosperity will provide a basis for overcoming mistrust, paranoia, and defensiveness.
Israeli society and industry are technologically sophisticated, but Israel has not demonstrated willingness to help Palestinians. Israelis should pursue policies that promote Israeli investment in Palestine and development of the Palestinian economy. Encouraged by the Palestinians, Arab countries must end the economic boycott of Israel and promote trade and commercial transactions.
Step Five: Rights of People not States
Israelis and Palestinians need to recognize the rights of each other�s people. Israel should acknowledge its role in creating the plight of Palestinian refugees. Palestinian refugees should be given the choice to live where they want. Jewish settlers should be granted similar rights to settle in the West Bank. Palestinians should also be compensated for the property that they lost as Jews are now being compensated in Eastern Europe for the same. The same applies to the compensation of Jews who lost property in Arab countries
If Israel were to accept the return of Palestinian refugees, only a small percentage of the refugees would return. It is generally agreed that a significant number of Palestinian refugees would remain in Jordan, Lebanon and Syria if these governments were given incentives and were willing to integrate them into their societies.
Step Six: Mutual Religious Tolerance
Judaism, Christianity and Islam need to acknowledge one another. Israel needs to recognize the legitimacy of Islam, rather than view Islam as the enemy and move away from a clash of civilizations, to a dialogue of civilizations posture. Muslims need to acknowledge that Judaism has a deep historical connection to the Old City of Jerusalem. By recognizing each other�s narrative, Jews, Christians and Muslims prevent the discourse of their respective fundamentalisms from becoming instruments of foreign policy, as is presently the case.
Step Seven: Education and Communication for Peace
Both Palestinians and Israelis need to change curricula, textbooks and other learning sources to accept the concept of the new truth. Israelis and Arabs who do not know one another are the most aggressive, towards one another, because the other has no face. This results in de-humanization. Both sides need to move towards re-humanization and empowerment. Israeli and Palestinian youth have more in common than their grandparents did. By confronting their differences, they will discover their similarities, as some are already doing.
Step Eight: Jerusalem
The final step is possible only when the previous steps are realized. Jews, Christians, and Muslims have equal rights in Jerusalem. Every religious group should acknowledge the right of every other religious group. We need to take politics out of the Old City of Jerusalem.
The Old City, whose walls shelter the holy places for three religions, should be administered by a council representing the respective religious communities. Its inhabitants should have the choice of Israeli or Palestinian citizenship. The council should have a rotating leadership. Security in the Old City should be shared between Israelis and Palestinians.
Capitals could be located outside the Old City. Israelis and Palestinians can locate their capitals in metropolitan (greater) West and East Jerusalem -- Jerusalem minus the Old City. Borders within metropolitan Jerusalem could disappear. They are illusory. Its inhabitants should be given the choice of Israeli or Palestinian citizenship. Embassies could be located anywhere in greater Jerusalem and serve both Israelis and Palestinians. Finally, we would suggest that were the Arab world to unequivocally and sincerely recognize the right of Israel to exist as a brother nation in the Middle East, the symbolic capital of Jerusalem as the key national identity marker for Israelis would diminish.
This is not idle dreaming. The journey toward peace requires a great awakening.
Sincerely, The folks at Nonviolence International
*************************************
Things undreamt of are daily being seen, the impossible is ever becoming possible. We are constantly being astonished these days at the amazing discoveries in the field of violence. But I maintain that far more undreamt of and seemingly impossible discoveries will be made in the field of nonviolence.
M.K. Gandhi
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
[Urban Myth,
I've addressed points 1 and 2 thoroughly elsewhere.
Point 3 - why????? In the name of peace. Please see the article below.
Point 4 -- I"m not spouting. It is well known that the Arab boycott is but a tin man. Arab firms have made major investment in Israel. Meanwhile, the converse is absolutely, hundred fifty percent not true. Partially due to Arab economic weakness (not much to invest into) but also due to laws which prohibit Israeli direct investment in Arab countries (which are labeled as "seditious". Please note just one "small" investment by Orascom, an Arab telecom venture
http://www.time.com/time/globalbusiness/article/0,9171,1214942,00.html
| Quote: |
Posted Monday, Jul. 17, 2006
With all the turmoil in the Middle East, few took much notice when Egyptian businessman Naguib Sawiris signed a deal last December involving a firm from a neighboring country. This was no routine transaction. Sawiris, CEO of Orascom Telecom Holding SAE, in Cairo, purchased 9.9% of Partner Telecommunications Co. Ltd., in Tel Aviv, considered to be the biggest investment, valued at $150 million, ever made in the Jewish state by an investor from an Arab country. Sawiris expected the rebukes he received from some fellow Arabs for doing business with Israelis even as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict still rages. But he insists that such deals will benefit the region by forming business bridges. "This is a very big step," says Sawiris, sipping an espresso in his 26th-floor office overlooking downtown Cairo, the Nile River and the Giza pyramids. "I am betting that peace will prevail in the end |
[] |
You haven't addressed the problem with #3 though. Please do so. I will restate it again. If Israel gave "millions" to its neighbors, how could Israel ensure that money would be used for peace, and not for buying weapons. Until it can do so, it would be risking funding its own destruction. Before it gives a dime, ALL Arab countries should formally recognize Israel's right to exist. That is the first step, for as long as they do not, Israel will not trust any "peace process". Surely you must see that.
As for number 4 you claimed that Israel's neighbors gave AID to Israel, not invested in Israel. That's different. Aid is to help a country that can't support itself. Investment is to make money for yourself. They aren't investing in Israel to support it, they are investing in Israel so they can make more money. |
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Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| You unfortunately have a fossilized view of what a "muslim" is. And to you they are hateful terrorists whereas the reality is, they are diverse and it is their governments that if anything should be called to task. Not a whole people. |
excuse me but just where in my posts did I mention 'muslim'?
I never once brought in an issue of religion....so dont put words in my mouth!
Your ignorance of the reality shines through dduebel! I dont care if the terrorists are christian, muslim, shiite, sunni, sufi, or whatever.....terrorists are scum.....people who support terrorists are scum and they all deserve to be executed. Thats a simple fact! If hisbollah, hamas and others wish to bring about change they must first lay down their hatred and terrorist ways.
Just how many times should people turn the other cheek to murdering savages?
Mod Edit: Edited out flames by poster |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| There cannot be peace without economic prosperity. Prosperity must be shared. Opportunities for economic growth will ensure that both Israelis and Palestinians are too busy to hate. |
Israel has built its own prosperity. It serves the interests of Arabs to keep Palestine in poverty however- makes for an endless supply of suicide bombers attacking Israel.
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| Israelis should pursue policies that promote Israeli investment in Palestine |
An Israeli can't walk 5 metres into palestine without being jumped on and stoned to death.How about Arab nations with all their vast oil wealth start investing?
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| Palestinians and Israelis need to change curricula, textbooks and other learning sources |
By all accounts Palestinians kill any of their own that so much as express rationality toward Jews, and "The blood of jews is like sweet wine to us" and other songs are taught to babies in the cradle.
for all the compromises Israelis have made, have you seen any made in return? |
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Mitch Comestein
Joined: 13 Jun 2006
Location: South
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Grotto wrote: |
| Quote: |
| You unfortunately have a fossilized view of what a "muslim" is. And to you they are hateful terrorists whereas the reality is, they are diverse and it is their governments that if anything should be called to task. Not a whole people. |
excuse me but just where in my posts did I mention 'muslim'?
I never once brought in an issue of religion....so dont put words in my mouth!
Your ignorance of the reality shines through dduebel! I dont care if the terrorists are christian, muslim, shiite, sunni, sufi, or whatever.....terrorists are scum.....people who support terrorists are scum and they all deserve to be executed. Thats a simple fact! If hisbollah, hamas and others wish to bring about change they must first lay down their hatred and terrorist ways.
Just how many times should people turn the other cheek to murdering savages?
Mod Edit: Edited out flames by poster |
Um, I just did a search, and Grotto, indeed, did not mention the word "muslim." Of course, this was just a grasp by the "moron of the lowest class" to find some way to qualify anyone that holds the opinion that Israel is in the right is some sort of religionist idiot. What he really wants to say is that if you blame Hizbollah, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, or any of the countries at fault then you are just a puppet of the evil Jewish-American propoganda machine.
| ddeubel wrote: |
| they are properly seen as a militia and an resistance movement. |
Only by those who despise Israel. Israel had retreated from southern Lebanon, so there was nothing to resist. There was nothing for a militia to fight against. What do you call a "militia" that intentionally and blindly kills civilians in another country based solely on religion? Terrorists.
| ddeubel wrote: |
| Your view of them is false and it stems from just eating whatever the media wishes to feed you. |
Ditto. How much CNN have you been watching lately? All they show are images of the poor Lebanese people being carpet bombed by the horrible Israelis. I saw a great quote... It said "How many of those 'dead bodies' got up and walked home after the camera crew left?" But, I guess if you don't hate the friend of America then you are just a fool, right?
| ddeubel wrote: |
| Besides your hate and uncompromising sense of the politics of this region, you fail to see that Hizbollah was Israel's baby. Created by her and nurtured by her. Until you see that, you won't understand what is happening there at present. |
Yes, Grotto, you are a hateful person. You hate people that are a kind and peace-loving people. You hate people that seek only gentle co-existance with their neighbors. Your hate is the worst kind, Grotto. It comes with no rational basis or reason. It also gives DD a fantastic "power word" to use against you. He can't come up with any real arguments against you. Therefore, he just says "You don't understand!" (because you don't agree with him) or "You hate muslims!" (in order to paint you as a racist or a religious bigot).
Hizbollah is Israels baby? If, by that, you mean that Hizbollah sprung forth as the Middle East's first real guerilla army, using mosques, hospitals, and schools as cover, in order to drive the Israelis out of southern Lebanon, you are correct. If you mean that they won the hearts and the minds of their supporters by giving them money given to them by Israels enemies and countries that fully support the complete and total destruction of the Jewish state, you are correct. If you mean the group that began this escalation of the conflict because they simply want to see the corpses of Jews that live in Israel, you are correct.
I guess Hizbollah is Israel's baby.
Last edited by Mitch Comestein on Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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canuckistan
Mod Team
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Not a lot of real choice in that unless someone has the stomach to completely flatten Lebanon. |
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