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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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 Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:42 am Post subject: THE KOREAN DOUBLE-STANDARD: SALARY SCALES FOR FOREIGN PROFS |
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As Korea veterans know and newbies are fast finding out, Korean universities pay higher--often MUCH higher--salaries to their own than to Western professors who hold equivalent postgraduate degrees, including Ph.Ds. It is not uncommon for a Korean professor to earn 5 or 6 million won per month with roughly the same teaching duties as a Western prof earning 3 million.
Anybody know why this is so other than "they do it because they can" pat responses?
Also, anyone know a good university that offers salary parity in Korea?
Inquiring minds want to know. |
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Juregen
Joined: 30 May 2006
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 6:34 am Post subject: |
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IF the foreigner is happy with 3M, why not?
Koreans tend to have a higher investment cost in their education, therefore a higher reward is needed to keep them IN korea, or they would gladly take a job abroad. |
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butlerian
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 6:37 am Post subject: |
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| Juregen wrote: |
IF the foreigner is happy with 3M, why not?
Koreans tend to have a higher investment cost in their education, therefore a higher reward is needed to keep them IN korea, or they would gladly take a job abroad. |
Nice reasoning. But, still, morally it is unacceptable. Things need to change. |
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CabbageTownRoyals
Joined: 14 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| Juregen wrote: |
IF the foreigner is happy with 3M, why not?
Koreans tend to have a higher investment cost in their education, therefore a higher reward is needed to keep them IN korea, or they would gladly take a job abroad. |
Living at home whilst studying, with parents covering ALL costs: tuition, allowance, text book/related costs etc AND obviously not paying rent, food, utilities etc....
So, no student loans. Hardly any of them have part time jobs and even fewer of them work in the vacations....
How did you come to that conclusion?
(and if they do study abroad, again, 'Daddy' pays the bills... |
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Paddycakes
Joined: 05 May 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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My Korean relative-in law (not sure exactly what he is) is a Law prof.
They have to bribe the right people to get the right job (very, very big $$$), and, at least in his case, he's expected to have studied overseas, which is also expensive.
Also, you may have PhD, but you're still just a language instructor - a job almost anyone can do. |
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Real Reality
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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Foreign Scholars Merit Equal Status
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| ... [Foreign professors] do most of the heavy lifting in terms of course loads, devoting themselves almost exclusively to teaching. Nevertheless, they tend to be treated as hired hands, without academic standing, and lacking the possibility of career advancement or tenure. They must submit to yearly contracts (compensated at a rate only 60 percent of their Korean peers) while walled off from the permanent Korean faculty who benefit from travel, research funding, sabbaticals, etc. Moreover, when hundreds of Korean scholars enjoy such perks at American and other foreign universities, something is obviously amiss.... According to the Samsung Group's chairman, Lee Kun-hee, to succeed globally, Korea must forgo the thought that Korea and being Korean is superior, and foreign specialists must be treated with respect. |
by John B. Kotch, JoongAng Ilbo (June 14, 2002)
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200206/14/200206142349223599900090109011.html
Corrupt Professors Common, Students Say
by Baek Il-hyun and Kim Ho-jeong, JoongAng Daily (April 28, 2005)
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200504/27/200504272214239309900090409041.html
51 Universities Face Penalties for Fraud
By Chung Ah-young, Korea Times (April 19, 2005)
http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200504/kt2005041917215911970.htm
Foreigners Experience Difficulties in Living in Korea
by Jae-Dong Yu and Soo-Jung Shin, Donga.com (July 4, 2004)
Site Address: http://english.donga.com/srv/service.php3?biid=2004070522448
Foreigners not accepted in Korea
"...you should not expect to be accepted as a member of a Korean's inner circle."
Consular Affairs Bureau, Canadian Embassy
http://www.voyage.gc.ca/main/pubs/korea-en.asp#Cultural
Here is a quote from the U. S. Embassy.
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| Korea is not an egalitarian society traditionally; one is either of a higher or a lower status than other people. Foreigners do not fit neatly into any scheme. They are normally treated graciously as one would a guest, but they may never be able to break into that close, inner circle.... a foreigner will seldom be accepted as part of the inner circle; he will almost always be an outsider looking in. |
from the U.S. Citizen Services, U. S. Embassy
http://seoul.usembassy.gov/cultural_pitfalls.html
51 Percent of New Professors Have Korean Doctorates
By Kang Shin-who, Korea Times (November 3, 2006)
http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200611/kt2006110318592411980.htm
University teaching load, pay, and what you may not know?
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=9900 |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| What do you mean by western professors? You mean real western professors who do research and publish in peer reviewed journals? Or do you mean english instructors hired to teach at the university level? If you are comparing the english instructors to Korean professors who do research and publish, well, that's a very poor comparison. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| CabbageTownRoyals wrote: |
| Juregen wrote: |
IF the foreigner is happy with 3M, why not?
Koreans tend to have a higher investment cost in their education, therefore a higher reward is needed to keep them IN korea, or they would gladly take a job abroad. |
Living at home whilst studying, with parents covering ALL costs: tuition, allowance, text book/related costs etc AND obviously not paying rent, food, utilities etc....
So, no student loans. Hardly any of them have part time jobs and even fewer of them work in the vacations....
How did you come to that conclusion?
(and if they do study abroad, again, 'Daddy' pays the bills... |
There in lies maybe the higher pay scale. Korean white collar jobs assume the Korean male is the single bread winner and has to support a family, support his aged parents, pay for public education, hagwon, etc. In a pay as you go society, large companies and institutions take over the social safety net. Foreigners, viewed as temporary workers and single, are not assumed to have these sunk costs.
Of course, the Korean working at the desk next to you at hagwon would beg for your life, pay, and privileges if he/she thought begging would do any good. And I'm sure in many international companies, the foreign expat working in Korea is doing considerably better than his/her local compatriot: housing allowance, allowance for good international schools, etc. |
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Porter_Goss
Joined: 26 Mar 2006
Location: The Wrong Side of Right
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| 3 million! I need to talk to the office guy at my Uni, stat! |
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Real Reality
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| What do you mean by western professors? You mean real western professors who do research and publish in peer reviewed journals? Or do you mean english instructors hired to teach at the university level? If you are comparing the english instructors to Korean professors who do research and publish, well, that's a very poor comparison. |
Why not compare the number of teaching hours per week?
foreign English instructors or foreign professors: 14-20
Korean professors: 6-12
Would Korean professors add their name to a paper written by another professor?
"Guest authors" Bulk Up Academic Paper Trail
College professors have been enjoying a free ride by having their names included as co-authors on other people's papers, seemingly a common custom in Korean academic circles. A JoongAng Ilbo reporting team analyzed papers that 76,593 professors nationwide reported to the Korea Research Foundation as having been published between 2003 and 2005 or presented at academic conferences during that same period.
Many pointed out that the scandal involving Seoul National University Professor Hwang Woo-suk and fabrication of data on stem cell-related articles has brought to light many bad practices that were buried in domestic academic circles. "When Dr. Hwang's case became a social issue, I'm sure there were many professors who felt guilty," said Chung Un-chan, president of Seoul National University. Dr. Hwang's paper on the cloning of patient-specific stem cells had 25 authors, many of whom later said they had not participated in the research.
Kim Ok-joo, a professor at Seoul National University, pointed out that junior professors or lab students inevitably put in the names of their seniors for political purposes. Still others pointed out that the name of a famous professor helps in attracting funding. "Research grants are many times decided through contacts rather than the research itself," said Cho Seung-yull, a professor at Sungkyunkwan University.
by Chun In-seong, Park Su-ryon, JoongAng Daily (March 14, 2006)
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200603/13/200603132146592209900090409041.html
Professors Cheat to Maintain SCI Scores
A professor of engineering said it was common for there to be up to ten co-authors on a paper, most of whom have had nothing to do with it.
A Professor Jeong at "C" University published some 20 international and 30 domestic papers during last year alone, an average of around one a week, while a professor Kang at "D" University aged more than 50, concluded a secret agreement with a newly appointed professor to have his name added to papers in exchange for hiring him as opposed to other candidates. Last year, Professor Han at "E" University who had failed to be promoted managed to do so after his name was appended to his student's paper.
by Choi Won-seok, Chosun Ilbo (April 25, 2002)
http://www.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200204/200204251020.html
Korean Scientist Accused of Plagiarism
Journal Claims KAIST Scholar Copied 8 Papers
According to the lead report in Nature's New Year publication, at least eight of the 80 papers between 1995 and 2002 written by Park Yung, who got a Ph.D. at the Korea Advanced Institute of Science and Technology (KAIST), were plagiarized.
By Kim Tae-gyu, Korea Times (January 4, 2004)
http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/tech/200401/kt2004010417455311790.htm
Ghostwriters investigated: Firms selling graduate projects face charges.
A professor who was part of an examination committee that accepted several ghostwritten theses said, "The quality of the theses was poor, but I didn't want to disqualify them. I never knew they were written by others."
by Kang J. A. JoongAng Daily (March 17, 2003)
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200303/17/200303170205221879900090409041.html
51 Percent of New Professors Have Korean Doctorates
By Kang Shin-who, Korea Times (November 3, 2006)
http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200611/kt2006110318592411980.htm
Corrupt Professors Common, Students Say
by Baek Il-hyun and Kim Ho-jeong, JoongAng Daily (April 28, 2005)
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200504/27/200504272214239309900090409041.html
Professors face charges on fund embezzlement
by Chang Hye-soo, JoongAng Daily (December 13, 2005)
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200512/12/200512122218338109900090409041.html
Professor returns and faces the music
by Chang Hye-soo, JoongAng Daily (May 25, 2006)
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200605/24/200605242225449309900090409041.html |
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Juregen
Joined: 30 May 2006
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| CabbageTownRoyals wrote: |
| Juregen wrote: |
IF the foreigner is happy with 3M, why not?
Koreans tend to have a higher investment cost in their education, therefore a higher reward is needed to keep them IN korea, or they would gladly take a job abroad. |
Living at home whilst studying, with parents covering ALL costs: tuition, allowance, text book/related costs etc AND obviously not paying rent, food, utilities etc....
So, no student loans. Hardly any of them have part time jobs and even fewer of them work in the vacations....
How did you come to that conclusion?
(and if they do study abroad, again, 'Daddy' pays the bills... |
It is a cost to the parents and they want to see result from their investment
When it costs money, someone has to pay, and they want return on their investment, be it next of kin or something else
the reasoning holds true over generations |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Real Reality wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| What do you mean by western professors? You mean real western professors who do research and publish in peer reviewed journals? Or do you mean english instructors hired to teach at the university level? If you are comparing the english instructors to Korean professors who do research and publish, well, that's a very poor comparison. |
Why not compare the number of teaching hours per week?
foreign English instructors or foreign professors: 14-20
Korean professors: 6-12 |
Why should we? Teaching, for many professors, is only one part of a real professor's job at a university. English instructors are hired to teach, not publish and bring fame to the university.
| Quote: |
| Would Korean professors add their name to a paper written by another professor? |
That's a problem common to universities all around the world, not just Korea. Publish or perish.
A famous, albeit, humorous one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpher-Bethe-Gamow_paper |
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JeJuJitsu
Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Location: McDonald's
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| What do you mean by western professors? You mean real western professors who do research and publish in peer reviewed journals? Or do you mean english instructors hired to teach at the university level? If you are comparing the english instructors to Korean professors who do research and publish, well, that's a very poor comparison. |
True...and if a full-on, real, researching/publishing, PhD, North American Professor takes a job in Korea for a crap wage, they only have themselves to blame. Free market dictates the wage. Same as with Hagwon/school wages. If people started refusing anything under 2.5 million, it would push the wage scale up, as we are already in short supply, but still enough dummies out there taking 1.7-1.9 jobs, screwing it up for the rest of us... |
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Real Reality
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Real Reality wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| What do you mean by western professors? You mean real western professors who do research and publish in peer reviewed journals? Or do you mean english instructors hired to teach at the university level? If you are comparing the english instructors to Korean professors who do research and publish, well, that's a very poor comparison. |
Why not compare the number of teaching hours per week?
foreign English instructors or foreign professors: 14-20
Korean professors: 6-12 |
Why should we? Teaching, for many professors, is only one part of a real professor's job at a university. English instructors are hired to teach, not publish and bring fame to the university.
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Yes, some Korean professors really bring a lot of fame to some univeristies.
Many pointed out that the scandal involving Seoul National University Professor Hwang Woo-suk and fabrication of data on stem cell-related articles has brought to light many bad practices that were buried in domestic academic circles. "When Dr. Hwang's case became a social issue, I'm sure there were many professors who felt guilty," said Chung Un-chan, president of Seoul National University. Dr. Hwang's paper on the cloning of patient-specific stem cells had 25 authors, many of whom later said they had not participated in the research.
"Research grants are many times decided through contacts rather than the research itself," said Cho Seung-yull, a professor at Sungkyunkwan University.
by Chun In-seong, Park Su-ryon, JoongAng Daily (March 14, 2006)
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200603/13/200603132146592209900090409041.html
Do students in Canada or the United States say, "Corrupt professors common?"
Corrupt professors common, students say
research grant fraud is common among professors.... 'Student bank accounts became dummy accounts for professors,' the student said. Many students say they decided not to become whistleblowers for fear of jeopardizing their academic futures.
by Baek Il-hyun and Kim Ho-jeong, JoongAng Daily (April 28, 2005)
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200504/27/200504272214239309900090409041.html
Professors face charges on fund embezzlement
by Chang Hye-soo, JoongAng Daily (December 13, 2005)
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200512/12/200512122218338109900090409041.html
Is this a way to get promoted in Canadian or American universities?
Last year, Professor Han at 'E' University who had failed to be promoted managed to do so after his name was appended to his student's paper.
Professors Cheat to Maintain SCI Scores
article by Choi Won-seok, Chosun Ilbo (April 25, 2002)
http://www.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200204/200204251020.html |
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hellofaniceguy
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: On your computer screen!
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:56 am Post subject: |
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The low salaries are the fault of no on except the teachers' signing the contracts.
And it won't change because you won't get the FT's to band together....it's each for himself.
You can bet one thing...if it were the koreans...they would have half the country in an uproar protesting! |
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