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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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You might be on to something there. On our maps Alaska is always shrunk and tucked away down in a corner. I don't know how conscious we are of Alaska--not very, normally.
Besides that, small-government people have always had an incestuous relationship with secessionists. There isn't even a solid line between them, more of a dotted line that lets them scurry back and forth between the ideas. We haven't had a serious secessionist movement since 1865, so most people don't even think about it. The ones who do are the far right survivalist types who infest the Rocky Mountain West.
By the way, we have a $10 trillion debt thing going on south of the border. Does Canada have enough money in the bank to buy Alaska for a price that would put a dent in our debt? |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Location: I walk along the avenue
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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Does Canada have enough money in the bank to buy Alaska for a price that would put a dent in our debt? |
I have no idea. But you know, the last Canadian prime ministers to actually articulate any sort of northern-based ideology was Diefenbaker, in the 50s and 60s. He called it "the Vision". One of his cabinet ministers used to express regret that he had not been around in the 19th Century to offer a bid on Alaska. So you're idea is not without its followers north of the border. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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She's not a secessionist. The AIP represented a whole lot more than secessionism, as it had to to become as mainstream as it is in Alaska.
Much more worrisome than Palin's association with a mainstream political party in Alaska is her whacko Christianism and her lack of knowledge of foreign affairs. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Location: I walk along the avenue
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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She's not a secessionist. The AIP represented a whole lot more than secessionism, as it had to to become as mainstream as it is in Alaska.
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Well, maybe. But did they ever renounce their demands for a referendum? Because the only reason I could think for them to be asking for a referendum was because they hoped Alaskans would vote for independence. I don't think they were pining for Alaskans to choose the "statehood" or "territory" options, since they already have the former and nobody in their right mind wants the latter. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Location: I walk along the avenue
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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Much more worrisome than Palin's association with a mainstream political party in Alaska is her whacko Christianism |
Yeah, but do you think that there are any swing voters who would be offended if the Dems started lambasting the end-times theology of her church? I know a lot of fundamentalists would be insulted at that, but my guess is they're voting GOP no matter what.
So if the Dems were to say "look, she belongs to a church that preaches Jews are getting killed by terrorists as punishment for rejecting Christ", is there any risk in that? One problem I could see is that it gives the Republicans the opportunity to bring up Jeremiah Wright again. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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On the other hand wrote: |
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She's not a secessionist. The AIP represented a whole lot more than secessionism, as it had to to become as mainstream as it is in Alaska.
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Well, maybe. But did they ever renounce their demands for a referendum? Because the only reason I could think for them to be asking for a referendum was because they hoped Alaskans would vote for independence. I don't think they were pining for Alaskans to choose the "statehood" or "territory" options, since they already have the former and nobody in their right mind wants the latter. |
A referendum isn't so bad. Secessionism conjures up images of white Southerners on horseback defending slave-holding. That isn't at play here.
You're probably right, the major foundation of their party was Alaskan independence. But a VeeP candidate's spouse is too attenuated a connection to be anything really attention-worthy. This is Rev. Wright distraction territory. Does nothing to add to the debate. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004 Location: All over the map
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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On the other hand wrote: |
nobody in their right mind |
...would want Palin in the White House. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know if she's a secessionist or not, since no one so far has asked her about it. Long over-due question, in my opinion. I have a little bit of trouble accepting that as a Republican, party of Lincoln, she can be even remotely tolerant of the idea. But we won't know until someone asks her directly.
The AIP itself is coy about independence, but not very coy. Here is what their homepage says:
Until we as Alaskans receive our Ultimate Goal, the AIP will continue to strive to make Alaska a better place to live with less government interference in our everyday lives.
The Alaskan Independence Party's goal is the vote we were entitled to in 1958, one choice from among the following four alternatives:
1) Remain a Territory.
2) Become a separate and Independent Nation.
3) Accept Commonwealth status.
4) Become a State.
The call for this vote is in furtherance of the dream of the Alaskan Independence Party's founding father, Joe Vogler, which was for Alaskans to achieve independence under a minimal government, fully responsive to the people, promoting a peaceful and lawful means of resolving differences.
I'm not sure if 'receiving' is meant to be 'achieving', but the odds are... |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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A referendum isn't so bad. |
I beg to differ.
600,000 dead in the Civil War beg to differ. A referendum on the possibility of secession is not on the table. Under any circumstances. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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That's not quite true. If the entire US wanted to put the question of Alaska leaving the union to a vote, that would be OK. But the citizens of a state are just a minority of the people, and do not have the right to take their neighborhood out of the union at their will. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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But a VeeP candidate's spouse is too attenuated a connection to be anything really attention-worthy. This is Rev. Wright distraction territory. Does nothing to add to the debate. |
I agree that the connection is pretty attenuated. However, even that much connection implies a certain level of at least tolerance for the idea, if not outright acceptance. For a major party to even flirt with secession, even at the attenuated distance, raises the concept to the level of public debate. Social Security has been the '3rd Rail' for a long time. I'd say putting a secessionist that close to the center of power is introducing what should be a '4th Rail'. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
That's not quite true. If the entire US wanted to put the question of Alaska leaving the union to a vote, that would be OK. But the citizens of a state are just a minority of the people, and do not have the right to take their neighborhood out of the union at their will. |
Well I think a referendum might mean it'd have to be majority vote. You're right, a plurality vote on a referendum to secede wouldn't fly.
And Puerto Rico? Hawaii also has a separatist movement. No big deal. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Location: I walk along the avenue
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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And Puerto Rico? Hawaii also has a separatist movement. No big deal. |
Sure, no big deal. But are there any vice-presidential candidates from Hawaii with connections to that movement? |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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Puerto Rico has every right to discuss their relationship to the US. They are not a state. There are historic legal forms to follow for them to change their status, just like all the states had.
Hawaii cannot discuss secession.
Maybe I wasn't clear above. Alaska alone cannot have a referendum on its status. The entire US would have to vote. I don't know if a simple majority or a super-majority would be needed for independence. Constitutional scholars would have to answer that.
Palin's religion is a delicate matter. I'm all for freedom of religion and she's entitled to hers, just as Romney is. Hers is a bit of a fringe religion. At the Assembly of God in my hometown, they spoke in tongues and were called 'Holy Rollers' when I was a kid. I don't know if hers is like that or not. Those kinds of religious practices are more widely spread than they used to be. I suppose the public should be aware of her religion, but I wouldn't want it to be an issue. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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On the other hand wrote: |
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And Puerto Rico? Hawaii also has a separatist movement. No big deal. |
Sure, no big deal. But are there any vice-presidential candidates from Hawaii with connections to that movement? |
No. But if either of the past two Governors of Hawaii were to be subjected to your 'America First' test, they would fail. Check the link to the Hawaii Nation website. Both governors, Republican and Democrat, are quoted. |
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