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stellara

Joined: 02 Apr 2005 Posts: 583 Location: germany
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Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:32 am Post subject: death penalty for Stanley "Tookie" Williams, Cal, |
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hey. have you heard of Stanley Williams?
Stanley Tookie Williams (December 29, 1953 � December 13, 2005) was the co-founder of the notorious "Crips" street gangs. In 1981, he was arrested and sentenced to death for the 1979 murders of four people in two separate incidents.
While in prison, Williams maintained his innocence, refused to aid police investigations with any information against his gang, and was involved in attacks on guards and other inmates as well as multiple escape plots. In 1993, Williams began making drastic changes in his behavior, and became an anti-gang activist while on Death Row in California, renouncing his gang affiliation and apologizing for the Crips' founding. He co-authored children's books and began programs to prevent youths from joining gangs.
he was nominated for each the nobel peace and the nobel literature prize four times since 2000.
yesterday morning, the californian governor Arnold Schwarzenegger denied clemency definitively. Stanley Williams was executed by lethal injection.
what do you think about this case, and about death penalty?!
greez  _________________ Don't cry because it's over - smile because it happened!
MOKEY ROCKS!!! |
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weiyao
Joined: 20 Jun 2005 Posts: 105
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Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:21 am Post subject: |
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governor Arnold did a right job. |
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stellara

Joined: 02 Apr 2005 Posts: 583 Location: germany
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Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:52 am Post subject: |
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why do u think so?
 _________________ Don't cry because it's over - smile because it happened!
MOKEY ROCKS!!! |
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Bob S.

Joined: 29 Apr 2004 Posts: 1767 Location: So. Cal
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Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:20 pm Post subject: Re: death penalty for Stanley "Tookie" Williams, C |
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Warning! Graphic Image Links to Follow!
Seriously, these are VERY GRAPHIC!!!
If you are easily disgusted, DON'T OPEN THEM!!!
You have been warned.
Don't click the names if you don't want to know how evil humans can be to each other.
Tookie deserved to die for the murder of Albert Owens, Yen-I Yang and Thsai-Shaic Yang and their daughter, Yee Chen Lin.
stellara wrote: |
In 1993, Williams began making drastic changes in his behavior, and became an anti-gang activist while on Death Row in California, renouncing his gang affiliation and apologizing for the Crips' founding. He co-authored children's books and began programs to prevent youths from joining gangs.
he was nominated for each the nobel peace and the nobel literature prize four times since 2000.
yesterday morning, the californian governor Arnold Schwarzenegger denied clemency definitively. Stanley Williams was executed by lethal injection.
what do you think about this case, and about death penalty?! |
His "change" was a lie, a scam orchestrated by his girlfriend Barbara Becnel. He never started helping police stop gang crime after his "change", and may have still been in charge of the Crips even from prison. You don't know if he really wrote those books or if his girlfriend just added his name as part of the plot to make him look like a reformed man. Even still, he dedicated one of his books, Life in Prison, to fellow gang members and cop killers. He never apologized for the murders or any crimes he was a part of, yet his supporters say he is reformed, repentant, and changed.
His Nobel Prize nominations were also a scam. The Nobel committee member that nominated him stated that he did it as a protest against the death penalty in the U.S. and not for anything Williams actually did or the quality of his work. Any joker with a buddy in a government legislature can be nominated. It means nothing.
Tookie is roasting in Hell, and the world is better off without him wasting oxygen. |
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KHF

Joined: 15 Dec 2005 Posts: 100 Location: ON, Canada
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Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with Bob S. on Williams' "false change". It's hard to believe that someone who's led a gang that knowingly committed great bodily harms could all of a sudden become the frontman in fighting gangsters. Frankly, I just think he's trying to gain pity in an attempt to appeal. However, I am opposed to capital punishment in general, so if any one asks me whether or not to carry out a death sentence, the answer will always be "NO". The reason is simple, death is irreversible. You might argue that time is also irreversible and sitting behind bars is certainly a waste of time. Well, true, but to cope with a waste of time is much easier than coping with the loss of a life. What if the prosecuted turns out to be innocent at the end? Some unfortunate souls have lost 20 or more years for crimes they did not commit, but at least they are alive, and every time the sun rises there will be hope. Imagine the sentences for these people were death, that would be a sad story indeed.
Also, it's hyppocritical to kill someone because "he killed". However, perhaps I'm also being hyppocritical here by saying capital punishment should be abolished, since such crimes were never commited against me or anyone I know. I can only imagine the trauma the relatives of the murdered have gone through. |
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weiyao
Joined: 20 Jun 2005 Posts: 105
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Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't think he changed, because he didn't admit he was guilty and he didn't help the police stop the gang crime. Other people also write anti-gang book too. So that's no need to keep him for doing that job. On the other hand, his death is a good warning for the gangs too. |
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philanthropist
Joined: 14 Nov 2004 Posts: 39 Location: Austria
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Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:54 am Post subject: |
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I agree with KHF, I'm against capital punishment, although I wouldn't know what I would think about this issue if, let's say, my daughter would be abused and killed (I'd probably try to kill the murderer myself...).
Ok, Williams probably was a brutal, crazy murderer and we will never know if he changed or not... But who are we to decide over life and death??? It's not right to play god, it's not right to kill people. And it's not right either to kill people who have killed other people. Put them into prison, give them a sentence for life! I mean, can you imagine to be told to kill somebody - I'm talking of the people working in prison, those who have to execute s.o. by lethal injection, for example. Can you imagine that they are able to sleep well after that, to lead one's life completely normally again?
And as KHF has alreday pointed out, there are so many people in prison who are innocent (being at the wrong place, at the wrong time) and there are certainly innocent people who are victims of capital punishment.
I've read that 68% of all the death penalty verdicts are due to errors of the legal procedures I don't know whether this is true or not, but if only one innocent person is killed in that way - capital punishment can't be justified! |
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weiyao
Joined: 20 Jun 2005 Posts: 105
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Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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capital punishment is a warning for those who try to commit serious crime. A decent person does not need to care about it. |
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stellara

Joined: 02 Apr 2005 Posts: 583 Location: germany
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Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:23 am Post subject: |
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thanks for your answers, i saw that i really knew less about this case..
i'm with KHF's and philantropist's opinion. i'm totally against capital punishment.
philantropist wrote: |
But who are we to decide over life and death??? It's not right to play god, it's not right to kill people. And it's not right either to kill people who have killed other people. Put them into prison, give them a sentence for life! |
we really shouldn't decide over life and death. to your answer, weiyao, it's not even proven that capital punishment has this effect on criminals. many murders are committed because of jealousy/rage/revenge or other mighty emotions, or on the other hand because of psychic diseases. do you really think that someone who is determined to kill maybe his wife because of mighty jealousy or someone who is a psychopath will think about his punishment?! do you really think he would consider death penalty? or that it would prevent him from doing this crime? i don't. mostly, criminals who plan to murder someone believe they would get away with it.. i don't think it works that way...
greets  _________________ Don't cry because it's over - smile because it happened!
MOKEY ROCKS!!! |
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weiyao
Joined: 20 Jun 2005 Posts: 105
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Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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I think any murder that is done on purpose, then the murderer should deserve some kind of sentence. whether a death penalty is suitable or not. I don't know, that's decided by the judge. And if the murder that is committed by person with psychic disease, I think maybe he/she won't be sentenced to death. And capital punishment is not just for murder case. How about the criminals that smuggle weapons or drugs? Can you imagine the danger if weapons or drugs are available easily? Not long ago, Singapore government just executed a foreign criminal who brought heroin into singapore. Do you think this still has no effect to the criminals that are planing to the same thing? I don't think so. |
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KHF

Joined: 15 Dec 2005 Posts: 100 Location: ON, Canada
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Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:26 am Post subject: |
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As I have said before, I am against it in *general*, not just in the case of murder. Of course those who smuggle weapons or sell drugs need to be punished, but that only constitutes separation of them from the society, in which many methods are just as effective as death if not even better. Also it's pointless to argue that capital punishment is a better deterrent, since it cannot be shown statistically (same applies to life imprisonment, too). BTW, the Singaporian government is widely known for employing harsh punishments often very quickly and in an inhumane way. I wouldn't say I like living there. |
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weiyao
Joined: 20 Jun 2005 Posts: 105
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Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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KHF wrote: |
As I have said before, I am against it in *general*, not just in the case of murder. Of course those who smuggle weapons or sell drugs need to be punished, but that only constitutes separation of them from the society, in which many methods are just as effective as death if not even better. Also it's pointless to argue that capital punishment is a better deterrent, since it cannot be shown statistically (same applies to life imprisonment, too). BTW, the Singaporian government is widely known for employing harsh punishments often very quickly and in an inhumane way. I wouldn't say I like living there. |
I didn't agrue that capital punishment is a better deterent. I just replied to stellara that it has some effect on criminals in some circumstances. I don't care about capital punishment, I am indifferent to it. You are right, Singapore is strict with punishment, and maybe because of that, it has a low crime rate. You said you wouldn't like living there, why? Have you been there? Is I know Singapore is very clean, and since the low crime rate, so I guess it 's pretty safe living there. |
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KHF

Joined: 15 Dec 2005 Posts: 100 Location: ON, Canada
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Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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There's no point in saying that capital punishment has "some effects on would-be criminals" since one can say the same for every form of punishment known to mankind. By doing so, I assumed you meant to say capital punishment serves as a better warning than life imprisonment, which as I've said, cannot be proven.
Now for the Singapore issue, I will be frank (and possibly offensive to some) here. I consider the government of Singapore as a totalitarian regime. Sure the place is clean and has low crime rate. However, if I have to constantly look up the current laws to see if I can chew some gums (which is illegal in Singapore until this year) just so I won't be whipped, sorry, but that place is not for me. There is a line between "just right" and "overdone". In the case of Singapore, their laws are not only used to protect the innocent but also almost to the point of terrorizing them. That said, it could be inferred that the "cleaness" and "low crime rate" in Singapore are most likely due to the extreme control the government has over its people, not an effective AND reasonable legal system. |
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Bob S.

Joined: 29 Apr 2004 Posts: 1767 Location: So. Cal
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Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:47 am Post subject: |
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philanthropist wrote: |
if, let's say, my daughter would be abused and killed (I'd probably try to kill the murderer myself...). |
Therein lies the need of capital punishment. The State has an obligation to its citizens to seek justice and, when necessary, vengence. The State decides and kills so we don't have to. It's better than a society living in the chaos of perpetual vendetta with killing and retaliatory killing. There are neighborhoods in L.A. that are like that, and you don't want to live there (thanks to people like Williams himself that started it all).
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who are we to decide over life and death??? |
Who do we have to be? |
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Hayde
Joined: 23 Oct 2005 Posts: 177 Location: Icheon, Korea
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Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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Bob S. wrote: |
philanthropist wrote: |
if, let's say, my daughter would be abused and killed (I'd probably try to kill the murderer myself...). |
Therein lies the need of capital punishment. The State has an obligation to its citizens to seek justice and, when necessary, vengence. The State decides and kills so we don't have to. It's better than a society living in the chaos of perpetual vendetta with killing and retaliatory killing. There are neighborhoods in L.A. that are like that, and you don't want to live there (thanks to people like Williams himself that started it all).
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who are we to decide over life and death??? |
Who do we have to be? |
That is the scariest thing I have ever heard. |
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