Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

stellara · Joined: 02 Apr 2005 Posts: 583 Location: germany

hey. have you heard of Stanley Williams?
Stanley Tookie Williams (December 29, 1953 � December 13, 2005) was the co-founder of the notorious "Crips" street gangs. In 1981, he was arrested and sentenced to death for the 1979 murders of four people in two separate incidents.
While in prison, Williams maintained his innocence, refused to aid police investigations with any information against his gang, and was involved in attacks on guards and other inmates as well as multiple escape plots. In 1993, Williams began making drastic changes in his behavior, and became an anti-gang activist while on Death Row in California, renouncing his gang affiliation and apologizing for the Crips' founding. He co-authored children's books and began programs to prevent youths from joining gangs.
he was nominated for each the nobel peace and the nobel literature prize four times since 2000.
yesterday morning, the californian governor Arnold Schwarzenegger denied clemency definitively. Stanley Williams was executed by lethal injection.

what do you think about this case, and about death penalty?!
greez Smile

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weiyao · Joined: 20 Jun 2005 Posts: 105

governor Arnold did a right job.

stellara · Joined: 02 Apr 2005 Posts: 583 Location: germany

why do u think so?
Smile

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Bob S. · Joined: 29 Apr 2004 Posts: 1767 Location: So. Cal

Warning! Graphic Image Links to Follow!

Seriously, these are VERY GRAPHIC!!!

Shocked

If you are easily disgusted, DON'T OPEN THEM!!!

Crying or Very sad

You have been warned.

Don't click the names if you don't want to know how evil humans can be to each other.

Tookie deserved to die for the murder of Albert Owens, Yen-I Yang and Thsai-Shaic Yang and their daughter, Yee Chen Lin.

KHF · Joined: 15 Dec 2005 Posts: 100 Location: ON, Canada

I agree with Bob S. on Williams' "false change". It's hard to believe that someone who's led a gang that knowingly committed great bodily harms could all of a sudden become the frontman in fighting gangsters. Frankly, I just think he's trying to gain pity in an attempt to appeal. However, I am opposed to capital punishment in general, so if any one asks me whether or not to carry out a death sentence, the answer will always be "NO". The reason is simple, death is irreversible. You might argue that time is also irreversible and sitting behind bars is certainly a waste of time. Well, true, but to cope with a waste of time is much easier than coping with the loss of a life. What if the prosecuted turns out to be innocent at the end? Some unfortunate souls have lost 20 or more years for crimes they did not commit, but at least they are alive, and every time the sun rises there will be hope. Imagine the sentences for these people were death, that would be a sad story indeed.

Also, it's hyppocritical to kill someone because "he killed". However, perhaps I'm also being hyppocritical here by saying capital punishment should be abolished, since such crimes were never commited against me or anyone I know. I can only imagine the trauma the relatives of the murdered have gone through.

weiyao · Joined: 20 Jun 2005 Posts: 105

I didn't think he changed, because he didn't admit he was guilty and he didn't help the police stop the gang crime. Other people also write anti-gang book too. So that's no need to keep him for doing that job. On the other hand, his death is a good warning for the gangs too.

philanthropist · Joined: 14 Nov 2004 Posts: 39 Location: Austria

I agree with KHF, I'm against capital punishment, although I wouldn't know what I would think about this issue if, let's say, my daughter would be abused and killed (I'd probably try to kill the murderer myself...).

Ok, Williams probably was a brutal, crazy murderer and we will never know if he changed or not... But who are we to decide over life and death??? It's not right to play god, it's not right to kill people. And it's not right either to kill people who have killed other people. Put them into prison, give them a sentence for life! I mean, can you imagine to be told to kill somebody - I'm talking of the people working in prison, those who have to execute s.o. by lethal injection, for example. Can you imagine that they are able to sleep well after that, to lead one's life completely normally again?
And as KHF has alreday pointed out, there are so many people in prison who are innocent (being at the wrong place, at the wrong time) and there are certainly innocent people who are victims of capital punishment.
I've read that 68% of all the death penalty verdicts are due to errors of the legal procedures Exclamation

I don't know whether this is true or not, but if only one innocent person is killed in that way - capital punishment can't be justified!

weiyao · Joined: 20 Jun 2005 Posts: 105

capital punishment is a warning for those who try to commit serious crime. A decent person does not need to care about it.

stellara · Joined: 02 Apr 2005 Posts: 583 Location: germany

thanks for your answers, i saw that i really knew less about this case..
i'm with KHF's and philantropist's opinion. i'm totally against capital punishment.

weiyao · Joined: 20 Jun 2005 Posts: 105

I think any murder that is done on purpose, then the murderer should deserve some kind of sentence. whether a death penalty is suitable or not. I don't know, that's decided by the judge. And if the murder that is committed by person with psychic disease, I think maybe he/she won't be sentenced to death. And capital punishment is not just for murder case. How about the criminals that smuggle weapons or drugs? Can you imagine the danger if weapons or drugs are available easily? Not long ago, Singapore government just executed a foreign criminal who brought heroin into singapore. Do you think this still has no effect to the criminals that are planing to the same thing? I don't think so.

KHF · Joined: 15 Dec 2005 Posts: 100 Location: ON, Canada

As I have said before, I am against it in *general*, not just in the case of murder. Of course those who smuggle weapons or sell drugs need to be punished, but that only constitutes separation of them from the society, in which many methods are just as effective as death if not even better. Also it's pointless to argue that capital punishment is a better deterrent, since it cannot be shown statistically (same applies to life imprisonment, too). BTW, the Singaporian government is widely known for employing harsh punishments often very quickly and in an inhumane way. I wouldn't say I like living there.

weiyao · Joined: 20 Jun 2005 Posts: 105

KHF · Joined: 15 Dec 2005 Posts: 100 Location: ON, Canada

There's no point in saying that capital punishment has "some effects on would-be criminals" since one can say the same for every form of punishment known to mankind. By doing so, I assumed you meant to say capital punishment serves as a better warning than life imprisonment, which as I've said, cannot be proven.

Now for the Singapore issue, I will be frank (and possibly offensive to some) here. I consider the government of Singapore as a totalitarian regime. Sure the place is clean and has low crime rate. However, if I have to constantly look up the current laws to see if I can chew some gums (which is illegal in Singapore until this year) just so I won't be whipped, sorry, but that place is not for me. There is a line between "just right" and "overdone". In the case of Singapore, their laws are not only used to protect the innocent but also almost to the point of terrorizing them. That said, it could be inferred that the "cleaness" and "low crime rate" in Singapore are most likely due to the extreme control the government has over its people, not an effective AND reasonable legal system.

Bob S. · Joined: 29 Apr 2004 Posts: 1767 Location: So. Cal

Hayde · Joined: 23 Oct 2005 Posts: 177 Location: Icheon, Korea